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Risky Biz Soap Box: Bugcrowd founder and CEO Casey Ellis on the future of crowdsourced security

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

In this edition of the Risky Business Soap Box podcast we chat with the founder and CEO of Bugcrowd, Casey Ellis, about the establishment of the bug bounty market and how things have shaped up. We also look at where it’s going.

The days of bounty programs being operated solely by large technology firms are long gone. Casey predicted that shift years ago. The question becomes, where will bounty programs be in three years from now?

Well, Casey doesn’t shy away from making some bold predictions. He thinks most enterprises will have vulnerability reporting mechanisms within two years, and a substantial proportion of those will offer rewards to bug hunters via companies like Bugcrowd.

He also sees bounty programs increasingly serving the specialist market.

You can find Casey on Twitter here.

Risky Biz Soap Box: Bugcrowd founder and CEO Casey Ellis on the future of crowdsourced security
0:00 / 32:39

Risky Business #459 -- Actually yes, "cyber war" is real for Ukraine

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

This week we’ll be chatting with Andy Greenberg from Wired about his cover story for that magazine. He travelled to Ukraine back in March to research his story on Russian attacks against the Ukrainian power network. He joins us this week to share the insights he gleaned during his travels.

This week’s show is brought to you by SensePost.

SensePost are based in South Africa and England, but they are very well known for offering training courses at Black Hat. This year will be the 17th year they’ve run training courses there… as can be expected their brand new devops security course has gone absolutely gangbusters in terms of registrations this year, but they’re also offering a bunch of other courses. They’ll be joining us to chat about trends in training in this week’s sponsor interview.

Adam Boileau, as always, drops by for the week’s news segment. You can add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing. Show notes are below…

Risky Business #459 -- Actually yes, "cyber war" is real for Ukraine
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Risky Business #458 -- Reality Winner, Qatar hax and Internet regulation calls

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

On this week’s show we’re covering off all the big news of the week: the arrest of Reality Winner, the apparent hacks that have ratcheted up the political crisis in Qatar and the renewed calls for Internet companies to be more government-friendly.

In this week’s feature interview we catch up with Samy Kamkar to get his take on what the lowering cost of hardware-based hacking could mean for our increasingly automated world. And in this week’s sponsor interview we chat with Duo Security’s Pepijn Bruienne about some recent attacks against the Mac OS software supply chain.

Big thanks to Duo Security for sponsoring this week’s show. Duo makes all manner of kick-ass two factor authentication solutions, you can check them out at Duo.com.

You can add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing. Show notes are below…

Patrick is taking a vacation. Risky Business will return on June 28

Risky Business #458 -- Reality Winner, Qatar hax and Internet regulation calls
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Risky Business #457 -- Shadow Brokers turn to ZCash, plus special guest John Safran

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

On this week’s show we’re taking a detour: This week’s feature interview has absolutely nothing to do with infosec. But it is related to the Internet. Sort of. If you squint a little.

This week’s feature guest is John Safran. He’s been gracing television screens here in Australia for nearly 20 years, but John is also a rather brilliant author. I’ve just finished reading John’s new book, Depends what you mean by Extremist, Going Rogue with Australian Deplorables. Honestly, it’s fascinating enough for me to just squeeze it into this show.

Basically John wrote a book about the year and a half he spent hanging out with all sorts of extremists; Left-wing Marxists, anarchists, right wing anti-Islam types and even Islamic State supporters, some of whom are now up on terror-related charges.

I speak to John about the Internet’s influence on extremism, as well as extremism in general. I highly, highly recommend this book. It’s a fascinating look at the contemporary political landscape through the eyes of extremist movements of all flavours, and it’s not a tough read. It’s actually quite funny and it really the most on-point thing I’ve read in a long, long time.

This week’s show is brought to you by Bugcrowd, big thanks to them! And in this week’s sponsor interview we’ll chat with Casey Ellis, Bugcrowd’s founder and CEO. Now that outsourced bug bounties have gone mainstream, we know more what they’re for and how people find them useful. So we speak to Casey about how a lot of orgs are basically just throwing the lower value testing out to bounties to free up their infosec teams to do higher value work. We talk about that and a couple of other points.

Adam Boileau, as always, drops in to discuss the week’s security news!

You can add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing. Show notes are below…

Risky Business #457 -- Shadow Brokers turn to ZCash, plus special guest John Safran
0:00 / 60:50

I got a detail wrong in my latest conference talk

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

During last week’s AusCERT conference I did a 50 minute talk that reflected on a 15 year career writing about information security. It was a repeat of the talk I did at BSides Canberra in March.

It covered thoughts on attribution, fake activist groups (Guardians of Peace, Cutting Sword of Justice etc), the possible motivations of high-impact leakers (Mark Felt, Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden) and the need to create norms around acceptable state behaviour when it comes to computer network operations.

In the leakers section I got a detail wrong and I want to correct it. Hopefully I’ll convince you that in context of what I was talking about the error doesn’t actually change all that much.

That whole section of the talk was really written to put forward the case that leakers have complicated motives. Even when leaks are in the public interest, it doesn’t mean that the leakers’ motives are as pure as the driven snow.

I speculated that perhaps FBI deputy director Mark Felt, better known as Watergate source Deep Throat, might have been tactically leaking against people who stood in between him and the FBI directorship. He loathed both Nixon and FBI director L Patrick Gray (no relation) and only lasted another month at the bureau after Gray got the knife and was replaced by William Ruckelshaus.

So that’s a theory: His leaks brought down the people in his path, but in the end he didn’t get the top job, so he resigned. I wasn’t trying to prove Felt was motivated by self interest, just that it’s a plausible motivator.

I also spoke about Chelsea Manning. She was relentlessly bullied during her time in the army, frequently clashing with both her superiors and the rank and file. I have no doubt that Manning is indeed, as she claims, a pacifist. But I also have no doubt that the relentless bullying influenced her decision to leak. She was isolated and miserable, but found a friend in Wikileaks’ Julian Assange. I sincerely believe there was an element of rage underpinning those leaks. Some revenge. (And honestly? Fair enough. The military failed her, big time.)

Eventually I boil the whole thing down to these factors: Self interest, public interest, ego, rage and combinations of the four.

To explore ego as a possible motivator, I spoke about Edward Snowden. Snowden always strived for great things but didn’t quite make the grade. He wanted to be a special forces soldier, he failed. He wanted to be NSA TAO, he failed. But when he leaked massive amounts of NSA documents, he could invent himself as anything he wanted, and he has. But a bunch of his public statements about his experience at NSA seem pretty shaky, bordering on outright bullshit.

It’s been nearly four years since Snowden went public with his leaks. In the talk I said it feels to me like something is off about the guy. Details have filtered out through the grapevine, and they tend to clash with his public statements.

It’s clear, for example, that he massively overstated his seniority at NSA. And parts of his story just don’t line up. I’m not talking about the conspiracy theories that a foreign power put him up to it or he was some sort of spy – I think that’s really, really unlikely – it’s more that he mislead on things that are basically inconsequential, like his reason for washing out of his military training. He also failed to correct some really shitty reporting on his leaks.

We’re getting to the mistake, hang in there.

As an example of Snowden coming across as less than totally honest I cited his non-reaction to an article written for The Guardian about the so-called PRISM program in 2013. In that piece, Greenwald writes: “The Prism program allows the NSA, the world’s largest surveillance organisation, to obtain targeted communications without having to request them from the service providers and without having to obtain individual court orders.”

In my talk I described that as totally wrong, but it’s actually only mostly wrong.

There was no “direct access” and NSA did actually have to request this material from the service providers. That’s been established. The part I got wrong is NSA doesn’t actually have to obtain an individual court order for every selector tasked from a court. In my talk I said it did.

Selectors are created under FISC oversight, but the court’s job is to ensure the compliance of those selectors to the rules it established and maintains, not to green-light each selector.

Over the last few years I’ve chatted with people who are familiar with this program. For their part, the technology companies mentioned in the PRISM program stories were all baffled when the story broke, both publicly and privately. Greenwald made it seem that the NSA had unfettered access to their servers. Their response, in most cases, is that they would only hand over data to the authorities if there was a valid court order.

So, over the years I’ve asked some people who’d know to tell me about the process that NSA goes through to “task” collection on an individual using PRISM.

They said that in order to obtain information from a company like, say, Facebook, they’d have to start by preparing a “FISA package”. This means they’d have to put together a case that could show the proposed target isn’t a US citizen, is not in the USA, and that intercepting their data is likely to reveal something of importance to national security.

These packages are worked up – that process involves senior NSA staff – then the package is sent up the chain for authorisation. When authorisation is granted, it’s the FBI, not the NSA, that approaches the technology company and asks it to hand over the data.

And here’s where I made the mistake: The tech companies said they hand over data based on court orders. People familiar with the NSA side of this program described the authorisation process for each individual target. I mistook these two data points as meaning the FISA court was authorising each individual collection. They don’t.

The package is actually sent off to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) and Department of Justice (DoJ) for post-tasking review. You can read about that process here. That’s the detail I got wrong.

But the FISA court is involved. It oversees and mandates the process through which the validity of selectors is determined, and there was regular review of the rules around tasking. Everyone tells me these rules were strict and adhered to rigidly. That’s not to say mistakes aren’t made. In a post-Snowden review, NSA found 0.4% of PRISM tasking accidentally collected the information of people who were either located in the USA (not allowed) or US citizens (also not allowed).

I realised I got this detail wrong when fellow AusCERT attendee Troy Hunt posted a picture of my slide that referenced FISC authorisations for individual selectors. Just looking at that slide in isolation I had a funny feeling.

So I went back to my notes and some source documents and realised I’d made the mistake. I asked Troy to remove the Tweet, not because I’m trying to hide my mistake, but because I don’t want people to believe something that isn’t true. It was a typical case of a non-lawyer getting something law-related wrong.

That said, I don’t think it really changes my argument with regard to Snowden. Even though some people may see ODNI and DoJ selector authorisation as inferior to direct authorisation by a court, albeit a secret one, the fact remains that none of the reporting even acknowledged any oversight or even a process for tasking.

Take this Ed Snowden quote: “I, sitting at my desk, certainly had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the President, if I had a personal e-mail,” he told The Guardian.

No, Ed, you didn’t.

In the case of PRISM I’m pretty sure the NSA senior staff might object, given collection against US citizens is verboten under 702. If they didn’t then ODNI or DoJ might have some feelings about it. And if they let it through my guess is the FBI might actually think something was wrong if you were trying to task collection on the US president.

Even if he wasn’t talking specifically about the PRISM program in that instance, everyone I’ve ever known who spent any time at a five eyes SIGINT agency tells me the same thing – everyone’s searches are logged and audited no matter what the program. The compliance hurdles and internal rules are universally described as a pretty serious (but necessary) pain in the ass.

This next part is important: I’m not an expert in intelligence oversight, and I can’t say whether the NSA’s oversight is appropriate or not. But I can say that it’s just crazy to write up stories about these programs without even mentioning the tasking procedures, auditing and oversight. These stories have convinced people that individual NSA operators could simply spy on whoever they like, using direct access to the back-end servers of major Internet companies. It’s just not correct.

My argument is Snowden’s silence following the publication of some of these stories is a massive red flag when it comes to his credibility.

But because he painted himself as a truth-telling whistleblower, Snowden was able to convince some journalists and many among the public that he was the only source who could be trusted when it came to discussing these programs. Everything else, his supporters say, is disinformation.

Of course, there has been legitimate public interest in Snowden’s disclosures. The NSA had been doing some pretty shady shit, most notably the (since discontinued) 215 phone metadata collection program. But that doesn’t make Snowden himself a saint. He’s not. He is what I’d charitably describe as “properly weird”.

In telling that story, I did get a detail about oversight wrong. Sorry about that!

Risky Business #456 -- Your MSP *will* get you owned

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

On this week’s show Adam pops in to discuss the week’s news. (Links below) After the news segment Adam and Patrick both chat about topics near and dear to their hearts: Shoddy infosec marketing and shoddy MSP security.

This week’s show is brought to you by WordFence, a company that makes a WordPress security plugin. It’s not so much an enterprise security tool, but it turns out that when you run two million Wordpress plugins you wind up collecting some pretty valuable threat intel and IOCs. WordFence’s Mark Maunder joins the show this week to talk about WordPress security and malware distribution!

You can add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing. Show notes are below…

Risky Business #456 -- Your MSP *will* get you owned
0:00 / 50:03

Risky Business #455 -- What a mess

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

On this week’s show, of course, we are taking a deep dive on WannaCry. Most of the coverage of this debacle has actually been pretty bad, and there’s been nothing that I’ve seen that even approaches being comprehensive, so we’re going to try to fix that in this edition of the show.

This week’s show is sponsored by Cylance, which, it must be said, didn’t “ambulance chase” this interview, they booked this sponsor slot in January this year.

Cylance CEO Stuart McClure joins the show this week to talk about ambulance chasing, why it is that we still don’t have a decent technical analysis of WannaCry and he generally gives us an industry view on this thing.

Links to items discussed in this week’s show have moved – they’re now included in this post, below.

Oh, and do add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing.

Risky Business #455 -- What a mess
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Risky Business #454 -- Intel AMT latest, TavisO's horror-show Windows bug, Macron leaks and more!

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

We’ve got a real bread-and-butter show for you this week. Adam is along in this week’s news segment to talk about the latest on the Intel AMT bugs, Tavis Ormandy’s horror-show Windows Defender bug, the Macron email dump and more.

In this week’s feature interview we speak with Adobe security engineer and OAuth 2 in Action co-author Antonio Sanso about what companies like Google might be able to do to make their OAuth implementations a little safer for users… Which, you know, might be something worth considering given an OAuth-based phishing attack was able to compromise something like a million Google accounts the other week.

This week’s show is brought to you by Thinkst Canary! Canary is of course the wonderful little hardware honeypot device Thinkst makes that you can plug into your network that’ll let you know when you have attackers on your LAN. Thinkst’s head of development, Macro Slaviero, joins the show this week to talk about the CIA’s leaked watermarking solution Scribbles, as well as to talk a little about Thinkst’s so-called “bird guide”. It’s a document (linked below) with a bunch of advice for those of you considering using Honeypots.

Links to items discussed in this week’s show have moved – they’re now included in this post, below.

Oh, and do add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing.

Risky Business #454 -- Intel AMT latest, TavisO's horror-show Windows bug, Macron leaks and more!
0:00 / 56:08

Risky Biz Soap Box: A microvirtualisation primer with Bromium co-founder Ian Pratt

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

This Soap Box edition is all about desktop microvirtualisation! Bromium has been around for about six years now, and they make an endpoint security package that is really, really different to other solutions in the market. The whole thing hinges on what they call a Microvisor, which amounts to hardware-enabled isolation on your desktop.

Bromium’s software is basically a way to virtualise user tasks, whether that’s working on a Word document or browsing an exploit-riddled lyrics website with Java and Flash enabled, the idea is if an exploit gets dropped on you it gets trapped in a micro-VM.

Personally, I’m a big fan of Bromium’s stuff. one of the things that kind of hindered the adoption of this tech in its early days is it relies on CPU features that were basically new six years ago, so not everyone could run it. There was also a bit of a UX hit. But there’s good news! Hardware refresh cycles have taken their course, and now running Bromium’s software is viable in almost all enterprises.

Where this goes from being interesting to downright compelling is if you’re an enterprise forced to run vulnerable software. I’m thinking specifically of old browsers running things like Java. In many organisations, running out-of-date crapware is a business requirement.

Well, running Bromium on those endpoints will basically solve that problem. Sure, nothing is magic, but by the time you’ve finished listening to this conversation with Bromium co-founder and President Ian Pratt, I think you’ll definitely want to take a look at the tech. You should take a look at the tech, because it’s borderline impossible to solve that problem any other way.

I hope you enjoy it!

Risky Biz Soap Box: A microvirtualisation primer with Bromium co-founder Ian Pratt
0:00 / 41:06

Risky Business #453 -- The Intel bugs: How freaked out should you be?

Presented by

Patrick Gray
Patrick Gray

CEO and Publisher

Adam Boileau
Adam Boileau

Technology Editor

On this week’s show we’re looking at an issue that kicked up last week when creepware scumbags Flexispy announced they were moving their bug bounty program to HackerOne. VICE journalist Joseph Cox asked HackerOne CEO Marten Mickos if he’d be happy to host their program, and his answer is as follows:

“Any company that operates legally within its jurisdiction, treats our hackers with respect and takes vulnerability disclosure seriously is generally welcome to run their program on the HackerOne platform. Improving the integrity of all connected software is to the benefit of the digital society.”

A lot of people, myself included, didn’t react so well to that line of thinking. HackerOne CTO Alex Rice suggested he come on the show to talk about the company’s stance. As you’ll hear, Alex is pushing a much softer line than his CEO, but still says this is complicated. Stay tuned for that, at times, excruciating interview.

This week’s sponsor interview is with Signal Sciences CSO and co-founder Zane Lackey. Zane was the head of security at Etsy, but he moved on to found Signal Sciences, a company that is making webapp security software that by all reports is pretty damn good.

He joins us in the sponsor slot this week to talk about Devops, WAFs and a whole bunch of other fun stuff.

Adam Boileau, as usual, drops by to discuss the week’s news.

Links to items discussed in this week’s show have moved – they’re now included in this post, below.

Oh, and do add Patrick, or Adam on Twitter if that’s your thing.

Risky Business #453 -- The Intel bugs: How freaked out should you be?
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